General Recording Discussion > Mixing, EQing, and Panning

Why does EQ'ing push away my vocals?

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CastleRecordz:
So... my vocals (when dry) will sound clear, on top of the mic, but somewhat bassy and rumbling at times.  Here is when equalizing comes in.  But as soon as I take that rumble out, now my vocals are pushed back away from the mix.  How do I get them back up there--sitting on top of the mix?

kip4:
are you applying a high pass filter in the eq?

stainless:
you have to think of EQ as a series of 'filters', that can selectively cut or boost the selected frequencies. With the exception of tones from a tone generator (and typically sine waves) all sounds are a mix of different frequencies.

a simple EQ is the 'tone' control, common on guitars- at midpoint it is intended to have no effect on the higher frequency's (treble) or the lower frequency's (bass). in truth it is having an impact on the sound, but unless you could bypass the tone control... in the middle is as 'neutral" as it's effect on the sound gets.  The real downside of the single tone control it that when you are adding more treble, you are also cutting the bass freqs (and visa versa)

So it became a plus to have a separate trebles and a separate bass control (common on many 60's and beyond instrument amps) and early PA's

next came the addition of a mid... which is essentially now a 3 band EQ.  along the way it was decided that it would be more useful to have 2 "mid controls, a low mid and a high mid, so now it's a 4 band EQ until we get up to31 band EQ's and parametric EQ

Every frequency has harmonic modes (sometimes called 'overtones') that are multiples of the frequency (there are sub harmonics but we'll not go there at the moment). It is these 'modes" that are one of the main concerns in rooms and the need for acoustic treatment. (and there are several calculators that will list  the frequency's a room of a specific dimension is likely to have issues with if you're curious about that)

so, when you apply EQ, you are cutting or boosting frequencies (and likewise effecting the modes as well). 

I believe (IMHO) the reason your vocal seems to seem pushed back when you start EQ'ing is because other frequencies in other tracks now have more (or less) room. Those with more room seem to be more present, and those with less get pushed back.  It is a challenge and it takes some extended effort and to some degree there's perhaps as much art as science in it.

SO, I strongly suspect that there is another instrument/voice (or multiples) in your mix that now have the dominant amplitude  (signal strength) in those frequency's your adjusting to take out the rumble

Look online for a sonic analyzer plug-in (I'm guessing you may have one in one of your programs... but if not, there are some freebie VST or AU's out there you can get a hold of.

Most work in stereo, which is very helpful.  solo your vocal track and hard pan to the L, select another track and solo it, hard panning to the right and look at the two wave forms. You should be able to see where they differ (because of different frequency's making up each 'sound") and where they are the same. Where they are the same are the areas both are competing for the same sonic space, and where with careful EQ'ing (commonly called 'sculpting')  you can make one stand out, seem fuller, more resonant, etc, without crippling the other. Panning is also your friend here. Because vocals are typically down the center (panned evenly L and R) it occupies a lot of sonic space. So an instrument that is competing can be panned off to one side and you could make a small (and usually narrow EQ cut) to it, without having to boost the same spot in the vocal, or just moving it "out of the way" may solve much of the issue.

This is a pretty simplified commentary I'm offering, and I struggle with my own mixes, and each new outside 'project" presents it's own issues and nuances that can be a challenge. I've also learned if something is really kicking my behind, that it's best to walk away for a while and come back after a break with 'fresh' ears.

I believe learning to use an analyzer will be a great tool for you and in time will help train you to 'see" with your ears as well as hear

CastleRecordz:

--- Quote from: kip4 on September 30, 2011, 03:40:18 PM ---are you applying a high pass filter in the eq?

--- End quote ---

When I do that (I may not be the best at EQ'ing) I get a radio sound (Like it's coming from headphones)...not natural.

CastleRecordz:

--- Quote from: stainless on September 30, 2011, 04:20:11 PM ---you have to think of EQ as a series of 'filters', that can selectively cut or boost the selected frequencies. With the exception of tones from a tone generator (and typically sine waves) all sounds are a mix of different frequencies.

a simple EQ is the 'tone' control, common on guitars- at midpoint it is intended to have no effect on the higher frequency's (treble) or the lower frequency's (bass). in truth it is having an impact on the sound, but unless you could bypass the tone control... in the middle is as 'neutral" as it's effect on the sound gets.  The real downside of the single tone control it that when you are adding more treble, you are also cutting the bass freqs (and visa versa)

So it became a plus to have a separate trebles and a separate bass control (common on many 60's and beyond instrument amps) and early PA's

next came the addition of a mid... which is essentially now a 3 band EQ.  along the way it was decided that it would be more useful to have 2 "mid controls, a low mid and a high mid, so now it's a 4 band EQ until we get up to31 band EQ's and parametric EQ

Every frequency has harmonic modes (sometimes called 'overtones') that are multiples of the frequency (there are sub harmonics but we'll not go there at the moment). It is these 'modes" that are one of the main concerns in rooms and the need for acoustic treatment. (and there are several calculators that will list  the frequency's a room of a specific dimension is likely to have issues with if you're curious about that)

so, when you apply EQ, you are cutting or boosting frequencies (and likewise effecting the modes as well). 

I believe (IMHO) the reason your vocal seems to seem pushed back when you start EQ'ing is because other frequencies in other tracks now have more (or less) room. Those with more room seem to be more present, and those with less get pushed back.  It is a challenge and it takes some extended effort and to some degree there's perhaps as much art as science in it.

SO, I strongly suspect that there is another instrument/voice (or multiples) in your mix that now have the dominant amplitude  (signal strength) in those frequency's your adjusting to take out the rumble

Look online for a sonic analyzer plug-in (I'm guessing you may have one in one of your programs... but if not, there are some freebie VST or AU's out there you can get a hold of.

Most work in stereo, which is very helpful.  solo your vocal track and hard pan to the L, select another track and solo it, hard panning to the right and look at the two wave forms. You should be able to see where they differ (because of different frequency's making up each 'sound") and where they are the same. Where they are the same are the areas both are competing for the same sonic space, and where with careful EQ'ing (commonly called 'sculpting')  you can make one stand out, seem fuller, more resonant, etc, without crippling the other. Panning is also your friend here. Because vocals are typically down the center (panned evenly L and R) it occupies a lot of sonic space. So an instrument that is competing can be panned off to one side and you could make a small (and usually narrow EQ cut) to it, without having to boost the same spot in the vocal, or just moving it "out of the way" may solve much of the issue.

This is a pretty simplified commentary I'm offering, and I struggle with my own mixes, and each new outside 'project" presents it's own issues and nuances that can be a challenge. I've also learned if something is really kicking my behind, that it's best to walk away for a while and come back after a break with 'fresh' ears.

I believe learning to use an analyzer will be a great tool for you and in time will help train you to 'see" with your ears as well as hear

--- End quote ---

Wow, that's some very informative information.  I've heard of the panning, but didn't know that it sounded as natural as it was supposed to.  I usually hear vocals stand in the center, so I always guessed panning them would make them unnaturally expanded.  I'll try it.

And you're right about some instruments dominating certain frequencies.  I struggle with this because I don't build my music at the same time as my vocals so by the time I'm ready to record vocals--the music's coming from a different source, already mixed, and I kinda have to deal with the music as is with very limited adjustments I'm able to make. 

What frequencies should I refrain from having too much of in my mix in order to accommodate space for my vocals?  I know it may vary from vocalist to vocalist but is there a general recommendation?   

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