Hello! Yes, that means I am new here.

[Powerpop451]

Hey everyone,

I am new here. I have been attempting recording and mixing the proper way for about 4 years now.  I feel I still have quite a lot to learn.  QUITE A LOT.  So I am here on this forum in the hopes of learning more.  I have pretty much been self-taught by reading forums, watching and reading tutorials and reading audio recordings and mixing books.  There are still elements of mixing that elude me and my mixes I feel suffer from that.  I am on a quest to try to learn those elusive things.  Those elusive elements I need to figure out are as follows:

• proper use of compression and just knowing when and how to use it the right way and to be able to hear it and know what it sounds like on every instrument to better the mix.
• Reverb and delays and how to set them up in a mix and on sends and buses. ie - stereo versus mono sends, proper techniques for using these elements in a mix meaning how many reverb and delay sends are typically used in a rock/pop mix and how to best set them up for optimal mixing
• EQ - basically how to eq elements in a mix and know how to hear what needs to be taken out of a mix and what needs to be kept or put in in order to make the mix sound the best it can.  I know about the whole high Q level and sweeping the frequencies to find the problem area but for me that doesn't do much I find.  basically because I don't really know what I am looking for.   

So those are just a few of my problem areas which are all key to a great mix. 

I have also taken some online courses at Berkleemusic.com but that only took me so far.  I have had no hands-on experience with any real studio or mixing engineer so everything I know and learn is all on my own and from my own doing.  So I am looking for more assistance from anyone willing to give it. 

In other news, just posted a song of mine that I submitted for possible placement in a commercial (fingers crossed).  Feel free to head over and have a listen or review it for me, give me mixing feedback/suggestions, etc.

here's the link to the post:  http://www.home-recording-studio-forum.com/index.php/topic,596.0.html

I have also attached the file to this post for any of you lazier folks out there.

[stainless]

Welcome to RHS!

I listened to your tune, it builds well and was an enjoyable listen

a couple of comments-

the brass seemed a bit strong (brass tends to really cut thru mixes)

bass- thin

drums, reverb didn't seem to match the rest of the 'room', meaning the drums sounding like they were in a different space

all minor, and could be chalked up to personal preferences

as to your questions- a lot of ground could be covered on these, so I'll offer a brief opinion, and take it as that-

compression-  I would spend some time recording various instruments and voice- just a short passage (maybe 30 sec).  Then copy the segment to a number of tracks and slide each section in the consecutive tracks so that there is a slight gap (maybe 1 sec), so when you play the session the segment loops.

Now apply compression set at the same threshold, but increase the ratio on each track, leaving attack release alone, and work your way up to 5 or 6:1 (I seldom compress above this... and if I think I do, I turn to a limiter which typically starts at 10:1)  you should be able to detect what the compression is doing... not sure? bounce the track to a 16 or 26 bit track and import into a new session and look at the waveforms, that should give an adequate visual.

Try it again with different attack and release.

and I'd try different compressors. If you have an outboard compressor, while a bit more work, it'd be worth the effort to patch in/out of it so you become familiar with it also.

All compressors are not equal!

I always look at the waveform before slapping on a compressor (or limiter) if there are just a few peaks, riding the fader (automation ) may be a better approach I tendf to only use compressors if theres a broad range of dynamics in the tune... or in some cases if I'm looking for a compressed sound

Reverb/delays. I tend to deal with grouped instruments stems if you like)  I will put a send to a stereo bus on all the drum tracks (to the same stereo aux) so i can preserve the panning. Once I have the drums set as far as how they mix together I lock the group so if i change the drum levels (not the aux) they all change proprtionate to each other). I typically put 2 sends on each drum track- 1  stereo aux is for reverb and the other for compression. Remember it's not necessary to have a signal from each drum track (I record drums with 7 mics) going to each aux.  example- toms, snare and kick have some signal to the compressor. Snare and maybe the hat will be the only sends with a level to the reverb.  Not only does this conserve on processor resources, but it keeps the verb or compression 9or any other effect) consitent within that group.

I may treat the lead vox differently from the BGV's adding a little verb, but the BGV's may only get a slight delay.... which may be from an aux buss.  I like the sound of a plate verb and will put this on the master

EQ- I tend to apply only to those tracks that have a conflict (bass and kick)(keys and guitars). Vocals, if I'm familiar with the vocalist, I  on the way in.  If I've done things correctly, there's little need to EQ on the master with the possible exception of a hi and low shelf.

To find the conflicts, I've learned to listen, but have at times taken (as an example) the bass and hard panned L and the kick hard panned R and sent both to a stereo aux which I've got an analyzer on, so I can visually"see" where both tracks are peaking.  I will then slightly boost one and cut the other (usually tI boost the kick and cut the bass. I use a hi Q and it only takes a dB or 2 to make this work (1.5 on eachis a 3 dB spread at that freq

as to sweeping, I solo the track and I listen for anything that is suddenly harsh and really stands out from the rest of the sweep, make a note, make an adjustment, re-sweep. When i think I have it I unsolo the track and see if the offending area is better... if I can't tell, then there may be another offender.  In a mix everything is a summed output on the master

hope this makes sense and is of some/any help. how I do it, but by no means the final word 9or even the best way)

we are all victims of our own rationalized efforts!

[Powerpop451]

Hey Stainless, thanks for the warm and helpful welcome and for the feedback on both my song and my mix. 

Let's address the mix first of all.

First, I want to say that I am glad you found it an enjoyable listen.

Next, I assume you meant the french horn at the end of the song?  That is the only brass in this mix.  I will take note of that and look into fixing it on a remix once my band puts full vocals and lyrics to this piece and we are planning on adding a verse and bridge too for possible placement on our debut album in the near future.  So I will definitely take that bit of info into consideration.

The bass,  I agree the bass is weak as are the drums, I feel. Getting a solid rhythm section is still a bit of a mystery as to how to go about it.  Such as how to make the bass and kick lock in together and just how to make it a powerhouse rhythm backing.  Again, I think this all comes down t o me not really knowing what to listen for.  I think that is my biggest problem is that I don't know what I ma listening for in every element and in every mix and with every effect or dynamics processor. 

Interesting about the drum reverb.  That just goes to show my lacking knowledge on how to route and place effects in a mix properly per element and per mix.  I think I sent the drums all to the same reverb.  I routed the drums to one stereo aux and then did some parallel compression off of that main Drums stereo aux.  I also routed from the Drums aux to a stereo reverb.  I forget now what type of reverb I sent the drums to.  I also did some extra effects on the Snare track.  I was always under the impression that you treat the snare a bit differently that the rest of the kit and maybe add some delay to it as well as some distortion or saturation.  So I added delay to the snare and I think some extra reverb in addition to sending the snare to the main stereo drums aux which was then also routed to the stereo reverb I put the whole kit through with a "drum room" setting for the drums reverb..  I don't recall the entire routing of the drums from memory.  So yeah, obviously I am quite a novice at this reverb/delay and routing stuff.

Love the tips you gave on how to practice hearing/using compression in the works.  I will definitely try that when I get some free time to play around with it a bit.


As for the reverb and routing I got kind of lost with what you are saying.  It' hsard for me to visualize what you mean by just reading it.  I am a visual learner so to see an example would be a bit better.  I think from what you are saying I sort of did that with my setup in this song.  at least I think I was on par with you for the first half of your description.  I think I did things way differently once I started routing things to reverbs and delays.  Maybe you can tell by reading what I just wrote about my routing in this mix.

As for  the vocals.  Are you saying you usually put the effects write on the vocal channel and don't route it to an aux channel?  When you said you usually add a bit of delay to the BGV  via an aux buss that led me to believe that is the case?  I pretty much only use aux tracks for routing elements in a mix to reverbs and delays.    And also are you saying you don't typically put reverb on the BGV vocals but rather more of a delay? 

As for the EQ section of  your post.  I would love to be able to get to that point where I know so much about what I am doing and listening for that I only have to use minimal shelving EQs in a mix.  I feel I am far from that place.  I tend t o have like 3 to 5 EQs on almost every track in a mix and I know good and well it shouldn't have to be like that.  I pretty much use EQ blindly and just keep messing around with it until I think I can hear what is correct or until I think it is allowing the voice I am effecting or another instrument to have it's place in the mix. But yes, It usually takes about 3 to 5 EQs on any given element and even then as you can hear some elements are still muddied or don't have a nice clear space in the mix.

I do love the bass and kick suggestion you made as to how t o find the slotting  frequencies.  I feel I would go to extremes and use that on every element which I know would not work and should not be needed if I knew what to listen for in the first place and how to us EQ properly in order to get the results I need for the mix.

I am sorry this is so drawn out but you did bring up some points with your previous post which I wanted to clear up in my mixing mind.


Thanks again for your welcoming me to the forum, your feedback on the mix and your overall helpful suggestions on mixing based on the issues I gave.  It is greatly appreciated.

Mark

[stainless]

Mark

I'll try and take a screen shot of a "typical" session for our band (4 piece- drums, bass, guitar, keyboards, 3 of us sing)

The more you can bus to aux sends the fewer plug-ins and the lower the demand on your CPU. I have an 8 core MacPro with 10 GB Ram, but Digital Performer can only use 2 GB (until they release the 64 bit version... rumored this summer), so while I have plenty of CPU resources, the RAM is the bottleneck. Plug-ins that look ahead (like Ozone, or some compressors, and most all pitch correction programs, really can hog the RAM.  I'm seriously considering adding a UAD-2 and letting it handle some of the compression and EQ duties... though I believe they are proprietary to UAD plugs... but that might help

vocals- If I have a "thin" voice, that EQ won't quite fatten up I can either duplicate the track and put a slight delay on the 2nd to thicken things up, when i get the right amount of delay (which for this is usually quite short) then I might add some verb to the original track, just enough to give it some 'air' but not enough to start sending it 'backwards' into the mix I like the lead vocals to sit on top , but not 'out in front' too much (I don't want it to sound like someone was singing kareoke style... LOL).

and that is the one pitfall (IMHO) of reverb, it's very easy to create too much 'depth' and suddenly have it sound like everyone in the mix isn't in the same room/stage.

With BGV's I may use 2 mono aux, sending each of the BGV's to each, panning the 2 mono aux differently often both to one side, but spaced ( say 17 and 30... etc), seldom will I pan one left and one right as I want the lead vox in the middle, and the BGV's (again IMHO) shouldn't be standing right next/behind the lead0  To each au i will add delay, and sometimes a slap-back on one and a short delay on the other aux- which seems to add some body to the overall BGV's. The original tracks may be used as a dry track,or more often I set the output low to almost quiet so the aux tracks are what's driving the sound of the BGV's

Do you have favorite CD's/LP's that you are very familiar with?  Listen carefully to those and pay close attention to placement as well as the different instruments- I like Steely Dan's Aja, as well as the recent Robert Plant/Allison Krauss CD's , great mixes. Early Beatles (Revolver, Rubber Soul) are good examples of compressed drums0

and to carry it a step further, record the song so you can open it in a session and slap a frequency analyzer on the stereo track and see see where the different instruments 'fall', there will be overlap, but you should see peaks that are the signature of certain instruments, like the kick, the snare, the bass. If you have a broadband parametric start cutting frequencies out to see/hear where the different instruments (and voices) are most prominent- this might give you a stronger insight into the subtleties of EQ.

Think of it as sonic skulpting, and you have to learn your ears, I might hear something completely different, plus, in the world of net sharing, I'm listening to your tunes in a completely different environment, so right off the line things have changed

and  about the brass... something had a brass sound (on my listen) earlier in the song, maybe a synth pad.... but it was brighter and seems to stand out a bit more than the rest