RME Fireface 800

[stainless]

after spending the better part of 3 days installing re-installing software, re-authorizing plug-ins, updating drives I almost have everything working-  Waiting on some BNC connectors to get word clock properly sent to my ADAT and SPDIF pre, got the SPDIF out to my monitors, all my hard-drives reformated and hopefully better organized than before, so aside from a few more plug-ins to re-install/update/re-authorize tonight I'm going to actually try and get signal paths established (less the SPDIF pre, and some more memory) and have a template to start recording

I really don't like working on computers, and the new MacPro was a beast to configure

The RME interface looks pretty sweet, signal routing is extensive and I should ahve completely independent headphone mixes for each member of the band with zero latency, as this will be going to the RME and back out to the headphones.

The FireFace Mixer is prettyamazing, there's a bank of faders for input, a bank for monitoring and a bank fro output...  it's going to take me some time to get used to 2 mixers. The FireFace mixer does not change the signal level into the software (Digital Producer) which seems pretty capable and thus far I've not once questioned whether leaving ProTools was a bad idea. More in days to come!

[stainless]

so after the better part of a week struggling to understand the subtleties of the RME (as well as Digital producer), last night was the maiden voyage.

14 simultaneous tracks, 4 independent headphone mixes, no latency!!  a few kinks to work out , level adjustments/balancing with headphone mixes, and a patching issue, but overall, seamless.  I tracked one song session for 34 minutes, no glitches, time-outs-

Digital producer has a great template function that saves not only tracks, but level, pan, any plug-ins, and the tracks all armed for recording!  talk about streamlining workflow to move quickly from new song to next!

Tonight I hope to get some of the better takes mixed down (despite some low levels)  and see if I can hear much of difference over ProTools hardware/software

'm already liking the software  still learning everything about the routing capabilities of the RME

[RawDepth]

Glad to hear it.

Yes, I love my RME interface, but mine did not come with Digital Producer. I suppose you will come to know it better with usage.

[stainless]

mine didn't come with DP either.

Does your's have the TotalMix/Matrix?

[RawDepth]

Yes, it came with TotalMix, albeit maybe an older version than yours. I bought mine about six years ago.

[stainless]

do you use it much?  I'm not finding it especially user friendly

[RawDepth]

I know what you mean. I felt the same way when I started using it. But once you understand how it works and what it can do for you, you begin to see the beauty of it all. It will begin to make perfect sense once you put it to work.

I made up a plain-language basic primer for you, just in case it is clear-as-mud right now.

TotalMix and Matrix are really just two different ways to show the same information. One is based on mono output assignments at unity gain and the other is better suited for variable level stereo output assignments. TotalMix is the easiest place to create headphone mixes because they are generally stereo based.

While looking at the TotalMix screen, you will notice three rows of mixer faders with meters. The top row relates to the hardware inputs on your interface. The middle row relates to your recording software outputs during playback. The bottom row relates to the hardware outputs on your interface, (hopefully being sent to the headphone amp.)

The bottom row can function in two modes, "default" and "submix." (You can switch back and forth using the green power button labeled "Submix" found in the master control panel.) When in submix mode, the output faders on the bottom row become paired to accommodate headphones. In other words, outputs 1 & 2 will feed headphone 1, outputs 3 & 4 will feed headphone 2, outputs 5 & 6 will feed headphone 3, and so on. All you have to do is adapt the physical output jacks to work properly with stereo headphones.

If you click on the first fader pair in bottom row (headphone 1) it becomes active and the other pairs become grayed out. Now is when you choose what sources will go to this headphone/pair. Turning up any faders in the top row will send hardware inputs (microphones) to this pair. Turning up any faders in the middle row will send software playback to this pair. So, in a nut shell, use the top row to define what the headphones will hear during tracking. Use the middle row to define what the headphones will hear during playback. This becomes a unique mix for headphone 1 and the other headphone mixes can be created in a similar way by clicking on different pairs.

The matrix is similar in layout but with the following differences. The top row relates to the hardware output jacks. (These outputs were on the bottom in TotalMix.) The upper-left column relates to hardware input jacks. The lower-left column relates to software playback channels. To make a patch-bay style connection, click on any intersecting cell. The connection is considered to be at unity gain but can be changed by dragging the mouse up or down.

Also keep in  mind that TotalMix and Matrix are not directly in the recording path. Changes in level there will not effect the tracks being recorded.

Hope this helps.

[stainless]

In my case, with the except of cans in the control room, all the headphone mixes to the studio are mono- seems to work better and then I don't have any issues with panning - and I don't know why it is that software developers seem to think everyone needs stereo pairs... it can't be much coding to allow you to pair/unpair

about the Matrix, the hardware inputs  are across the top, upper left is hardware outputs, lower left is playback channels... and across the bottom is??

I'm close to having it all dialed in

[RawDepth]

...about the Matrix, the hardware inputs  are across the top, upper left is hardware outputs, lower left is playback channels... and across the bottom is??

No, nothing across the bottom. Imagine that the array has a bunch of backward "L" shaped patch cables. The cables can only make connections between the top row and the left side. So, your routing choices are either input-to-output or playback-to-output.

[stainless]

I have to look- I'm sure there's something across the bottom on mine....

[RawDepth]

I have to look- I'm sure there's something across the bottom on mine....

Oh. Maybe they added something to the bottom in the newer version. I don't know.

Did you mean all of your headphones are mono? ...Or that you wanted 24 mixes instead of 12? There is panning control on the TotalMix top row.

[stainless]

Here's how my session is set up for the headphones   headphone matrix mixer is a Oz Audio Q-Mix HM-6, Headphone distributionis a Presonus HP-60                 
                                                                                                       
drums - send to analog out 3 -> Headphone matrix mixer             
                                                                                                       
bass - send to Analog output 4 -> Headphone matrix mixer

Guitar(s) - send to Analog output 5 -> Headphone matrix mixer

Keys - send to Analog output 4 -> Headphone matrix mixer

Vocals send to analog 1/2 - Headphone distribution input A-L/R

click (if used is routed analog 7 - Headphone distribution  input B-L

6 channel outs from HM-6  are inserted into the 6 channels of the HP-60

HP-60 is set to summed mono- if someone doesn't want the click I hard pan B to the R, If they want click, I hard pan to L

Matrix mixer allows me to set the level of each instrument independent of the others, as well as control the instrument mix level as a whole for each channel. These get 'blended' with the vox and click

I use mono because it just seems to work better, proximity seems less an issue, and I can pan the control room mix however I want independent of the headphones

a few glitches Monday night, but overall works great

In Protools I could do this without sends, but there was noticeable latency... or else the potential for buffer errors from running a low buffer (64)- if I bypassed all plug-ins it worked OK, but the track fader impacted the level to the HM-6 and HP-60 which sometimes worked against things and boosting the headphone amps to compensate introduced distortion

[RawDepth]

I see. But TotalMix can do everything that your HM-6 is doing. You can make 12 independent mixes all with different instrument levels and with or without click. It can also make a control room mix on the spdif outputs on the bottom row of faders.

My point is, you don't need the HM-6 anymore. And let them be stereo mixes. Every paired output (TotalMix bottom row) has a mono switch.

[stainless]

I have to look... I don't believe I've seen a mono switch.... and I believe the inserts into the HP-60 are mono (balanced... but still mono... but I need to check that)... and while I can pan hard L/R to use the paired outs... that's still a step I'm not doing with the HM-6... and wouldn't I need the headphone driver (amsp) to support 12 headphone mixes

and I can insert outboard effects which I don't know how I'd send/return on the FF800... unless I assign another output on the FF800 as a send and then use an available input as a return?

 thus far (and admittedly still being a newb with TotalMix) I find the hands on of the HM-6 to be much faster than opening a window/grabbing the mouse... if they come out with touchscreens, then I'll know where to use a 3rd monitor (video) on the Mac !      (at the moment I don't know where I'd put a 3rd monitor)

as to the SPDIF- the FF is at unity and I control the control room levels fromthe Euphonix (more hands on)

[RawDepth]

Well, that's your decision. Whatever works best for you.

FYI:
To set a pair to MONO...first click in the black area of the Monitor Control Panel, (see attachment,) and choose the pair you want to set. Then press the MONO button below the black area. This mono setting will effect only the displayed pair.

[stainless]

it would have been really helpful if someone on the RME forum had bothered to tell me that when I asked...

so - If I select analog 3/4, hit mono. then select 5/6 and select mono... 3456 will all be mono?

when I do it for 3/4.... with mono selected highlighted... when I click on output fader 3, 4 lights up also

and yes, the bottom of mine appears to mirror what across the top, meani if I relabel on the top, the corresponding spot on the bottom reflects the change

and all the inputs (top row) ... they all show  panning?  if I'm going to mono, shouldn't that go away?

and across the top faders I have a M and S button- I took this to mean Mute and Solo...... yes/no?

[RawDepth]

so - If I select analog 3/4, hit mono. then select 5/6 and select mono... 3456 will all be mono?

when I do it for 3/4.... with mono selected highlighted... when I click on output fader 3, 4 lights up also

I don't think it separates the pairs. Instead 3 & 4 will probably output identical content. (I think. Not sure.)

and all the inputs (top row) ... they all show  panning?  if I'm going to mono, shouldn't that go away?


Just to be clear. Panning is in a black box with a tiny vertical blue bar near the top of the channel fader. Grab the blue bar with your mouse and slide it left or right to pan the channel.

If the pair is not separated by the mono switch, maybe that panning bar is simply disabled. (I don't know. I never used the mono mode.)

and across the top faders I have a M and S button- I took this to mean Mute and Solo...... yes/no?

Yes sir! Mute and Solo.

[stainless]

I don't think it separates the pairs. Instead 3 & 4 will probably output identical content. (I think. Not sure.)

that won't be of much help

and all the inputs (top row)

Just to be clear. Panning is in a black box with a tiny vertical blue bar near the top of the channel fader. Grab the blue bar with your mouse and slide it left or right to pan the channel.  If the pair is not separated by the mono switch, maybe that panning bar is simply disabled. (I don't know. I never used the mono mode.)

nothing happened when i tried clicking on the mono button last night

and across the top faders I have a M and S button- I took this to mean Mute and Solo...... yes/no?

Yes sir! Mute and Solo.

mono/stereo would be more useful.....

I'm just damn hard to please 

[RawDepth]

Perhaps there is an unfulfilled niche in the marketplace. A business opportunity for you...mono submixes.

[stainless]

or interfaces with built-in headphone amps

while the RME has all these possibilities for invidual mixes... that's assuming you have enough physical
outputs

I'm limited to the analog outs as my ADAT doesn't analog outs (it has direct outs for each channel of input.... but that doesn't help much)

so if I used stereo pairs on the RME, I could conceivable have 4 outputs for headphones (as I'm using the SPDIF for my control room monitors)... but what if I needed 5?

don't know how often you use outboard gear for sends/returns.... but most of the time I'm using a mono out, mono return, most times... which limits to only 2 outs for 'sends' under my headphone scenario... so 8 mono is worth more to me than 4 stereo

and it is what your used to, and how you learned. I started before digital; home computers and cell phones were for folks with money, solid state was the new recording gear deal, tubes were old school and tape was king!  The times they are a 'changing

[RawDepth]

...I'm limited to the analog outs as my ADAT doesn't analog outs (it has direct outs for each channel of input.... but that doesn't help much)

so if I used stereo pairs on the RME, I could conceivable have 4 outputs for headphones (as I'm using the SPDIF for my control room monitors)... but what if I needed 5?...

Oh! I keep forgetting that you only have 8 outs. I have 24 and it never seemed like a problem to be limited to 12 mixes. Sorry, I forgot you are down to 4 mixes now.

don't know how often you use outboard gear for sends/returns.... but most of the time I'm using a mono out, mono return, most times... which limits to only 2 outs for 'sends' under my headphone scenario... so 8 mono is worth more to me than 4 stereo

I don't create any effects loops while tracking, only during editing or mixdown. So, I turn off the "Submix" button (headphone mixes not needed,) and I get all mono outs across the bottom row. However, you can only create one unique mix that way, or 24 identical mixes. But that doesn't matter to me because I only patch one playback channel to one output jack and return in through a new channel. (Actually, I use the Matrix for those tasks.)

and it is what your used to, and how you learned. I started before digital; home computers and cell phones were for folks with money, solid state was the new recording gear deal, tubes were old school and tape was king!  The times they are a 'changing

Yes, I hear ya bro. I mixed on analog mixers for a lot of years too. (Not studio but live.) Knobs are still stuck in my brain.

[stainless]

Oh! I keep forgetting that you only have 8 outs. I have 24 and it never seemed like a problem to be limited to 12 mixes. Sorry, I forgot you are down to 4 mixes now.

So what are you using for the ADAT's (I'm assuming this is where you're getting additional outputs?)  if not ADAT's, how are you getting 24 outs?

[RawDepth]

Well, I have an RME HDSP9652 pci card. I also purchased 2 RME AEB8-O analog output expansion cards for the 9652. These are same as AO4S but with 8 channels each. (16 channels total)

The rest comes from an 8 channel mic pre via ADAT. The pre is two-way with both a/d and d/a built in. So, my HDSP9652 card still has two ADAT out plugs not being used. But all ports are in use because the expansion cards plug in internally and make use of the ADAT functionality somehow.

I also have an AEB8-I card for extra analog preamp inputs. I could add another input expansion card yet but I am running out of spaces in my computer. I may upgrade to what you have someday for additional channels.

I get control room monitor from the SPDIF outs same as you.

[stainless]

so you have a 2 way ADAT?

I'm thinking about getting the UAD-2 PCIe  card (I presently have all 4 slots empty)

Do the cards have a D-sub that uses an D-sub x 8 channel TRS?

[RawDepth]

so you have a 2 way ADAT?
Well, it's nothing unique. The 9652 card has 3 adat IN plugs and 3 adat OUT plugs. So from that I get 24 in and 24 out. (But the spdif is on a small d-sub.) It also has 6 ribbon cable adat plugs on the card to accommodate the expansion daughter cards. Those plugs are inside the machine on the card.

I believe that when I plug in any of the the ribbon cables it disables the corresponding external adat plug. So, I am still limited to 24 ins and 24 outs no matter how you slice it.

I'm thinking about getting the UAD-2 PCIe  card (I presently have all 4 slots empty)
I never used one, but I hear they are nice. I wonder if they are as good or better than the high end plug-ins on the market.

Do the cards have a D-sub that uses an D-sub x 8 channel TRS?
No, the expansion cards have 4 stereo output jacks (1/4") built into the card faceplate. But they actually operate as 8 mono channels. I just need to use insert cables to split each pair at the jack.