Can someone tell me what I'm doing wrong??

[kindyl]

   I have used many different multi-track recorders for many years. I should be alot better at getting a good sounding mix-down than I am, but I have to say I'm still doing the same thing wrong that I've always done. Currently I am using a Korg D3200.

My problem is this........
  It doesn't matter what recorder I've used I can never get a good sounding disc.
I have mixed down many ways and it always sounds great playing back from the recorder itself. When I burn it to disc and take it to any other sound system it sounds bad. I've been told that it could be the speakers I that I mix with. So I've tried mixing through many different speakers. I used my pa mains and monitors while switching back and forth between them and headphones to make sure they both sounded good. Then I bought studio monitors and mixed with them just to have the same problem again. I've always used a reference cd and tried to match the over all tonality of things. My band has helped and we still get the same result. I have tried outboard burners instead of the one in the D3200 and I have transfered and burned from the computer yet they all end up soundeing the same. There is no warmth.

So my question's are....
  If I use the 24 bit setting instead of the 16 bit setting will it help with this issue?
  I've always been more concerned with getting clean (hissless) tracks rather than getting the perfect sound going into the recorder. I've always thought that I could tweak the track EQ's to get the final tone. Could this be my problem?
   
If you have any idea's or recomendations please help.   
 

[stainless]

kindyl

welcome to HRS

I'm going to take an educated guess, based on your comments about different DAW's (recorders?) and/or speakers, if the mix sounds fine the room your mixing in, but not so good elsewhere.... it is most likely the acoustics of the room... soemthing most of us don't want to address for various reasons- don't own the building/house and therefore can't start making acoustic treatments to the room... or it's more fun to buy new gear than buying acoustic foam, traps, and diffusers...  OR we are convinced we have great ears and know what sounds good

a room with poor acoustics will cause you to over compensate for the deficiencies of the room... IMHO this is the main reasons since the days of early radio, there have been "tone" controls on electronic apparatus....

While the speakers do in fact have an impact on the sound heard during playback (as does how the tracks were recorded) the environment dictates standing waves (cancellation and exaggeration) as well as sonic placement (how we hear 'stereo' which is often dictated by sonic levels (especially when the sound sources (aka speakers) do not have a wide spread

for me personally, I spent a lot of $$$ buying gear which I thought would solve my problem of poor translation of mixes (sounding crappy everywhere else but in my studio...) When I finally broke down and started the process of acoustic treatment.... amazing... absolutely amazing difference... not only in how it sounded when I mixed it,  but it  still sounded good elsewhere... MP3's or WAV's  on computer speakers, car stereos, home theaters

It's been argued for some time, but the consensus is most of us can't hear the difference between 16 bit or 24 bit... or for that matter 44.1 K and 96K... clocking makes a difference, better quality clocks are superior to the internal clocks in most DAW's/recorders, but as to EQ'ing....if you record it right, there should be little use for EQ, except perhaps on mastering... otherwise (once again) you're compensating for poor room acoustics

I recently saw a Cilla Black (sp?) video of a recording session (at Abbey Roads I believe)... full instrumentation, strings, everything-thing-thing (including Bacharach conducting) all in the same room, recorded live... no fuss no muss.. and apparently no EQ, other than whatever the signal paths were... a good room... oh yeah... we would be ever so lucky

look no further than the room you're mixing in-  can you learn to compensate for it and still have it translate?  maybe... but it sounds like you've been trying that approach for a while with the same results

[kindyl]

 Hey Stainless.
    Thank for your responce. It could very well be the room I am mixing in. Now that you mentioned that I've never mixed in any other room. Could also be my ear. I not one of those guys that thinks I have the perfect ear thats why I've had the other guys in the band involved. I figure the more ears the more input on the over all sound. So I haven't ruled out the fact that it could be the way I haer it. As for acoustic treatment in the room I have none so maybe that is the place to start. It's like you said I don't own it so I can't make permanent changes. I've done some researching into that a little though. Do you think thick blankets like comforters or something along those lines drapped on the walls would help much? If so should I do it to whole room?

Thanks again   

[stainless]

kyndyl

I wouldn't discount your ears (unless you're tone deaf  )  Do you have  a commercial CD that you really like/admire  the way it was mixed and sounds? (I have a small collection I use as 'reference" depending on the style of music:  Steely Dan's Aja, the recent Robert Plant & Allison Krauss, Sgt. Peppers, Stevie Nick's Belladonna, Doobie Brothers Liv'in on the Fault Line, Synchronicity, Layla...)  How does youtr 'reference CD sound with absolutely no EQ or other enhancements?  It's important to really study your reference on different systems so you can determine what's different in your room:  boomy, thin base, excessive highs, or a bit muddy?  These are the areas that you need to learn to not overcompensate for in your own mix, otherwise the cuts and boosts may stand out in other listening environments.

things to consider:

Monitors- are they sitting 'solid' on your desk/console- if so you may have some 'coupling' whereas the surface of the desk/console becomes an additional source of resonance- place them on some mouse pads, acoustic foam, monitor wedges.

Are you mixing from a corner or in the middle of a wall?  corners are problematic, especially for low freq's... which is why they are typically 'trapped'

Are you sitting (your ears) at the rooms mid point(either front-to-back, or side-to-side?  standing waves are a real problem at the mid point...

heavy blankets will help to an extent, as will heavy drapes. Generally you don't treat opposite parallel walls.  in the exact same location, as you want some reflectivity, otherwise ther's a tendency to add too much verb.  The goal is not to 'kill' the rooms acoustics, just tame those frequencies because of the shape/configuration are creating problems.

carpeted floor? if so I wouldn't do much of anything with the ceiling, though a "cloud" type diffuser above the mixer/keyboard is helpful.

If you don't have to close the door(s) into the room, try leaving them slightly open

Pictures on walls - put felt "bumpers" on the back of the frames so they can't vibrate

try changes one-at-a time so you can see which ones are making a difference and which ones don't seem to change much of anything

Because most of us are in rooms that were not originally designed or built to yield pristine acoustics there is no absolute correct approach, but IMHO, I don't believe that the next plug-in will solve everything. Even the room correction software requires the engineer to be aware of where the corrections are/were made.  I have the JBL's with RC and with all my acoustic treatment there's still a cut at 92 Hz, so I'm always mindful not to make much in the way of boosts at that freq plus or minus 10 Hz-

good luck

and you can always post a mix and see how others would approach it, albeit a bit humbling at times 

[kindyl]

Hey Stainless,

  I use quit a few reference discs. I usually play them through the same speakers I am mixing through and switch between what I am mixing and the disc I am using for reference.
 I was mixing in a corner and but moved out from it to a wall when I got the studio monitors. When I got them I raised them up 4" on their own wedges. I will have to put a pad under them like you said, I never even thought of that. They are Tascam's with a 5" woofer and a small tweeter in each of them. I have them set them about 3' apart and 3' in front of me at ear level. They are slightly turned in and form some what of a triangle between them and my ears. Do you think this setup will be okay? I was using larger speakers before. I had a 15 with a horn and a 15 sub in opposite corners of the room. I would center myself between them and mix that way. I also had a habit of trying to mix with louder volumes. I am going to try to mix at a lower sound level and see if that helps.
  I will try to get a mix posted soon and hopefully get some advice on it. Humbling or not any advise that might help me out is good to hear. I just want to learn how to get it right.

 Thanks again
Jason

[stainless]

Hey Jason

sounds like your speakers could be a little wider. The "triangle" should be equal angles - my monitors are ~ 5 1/2' apart  and I'm about 4' back from the "line" between the 2 monitors.- and I ended up suspending them from the ceiling using aircraft cables with a plywood platform with a 1" piece of rigid fiberglass (same material I use (also 2" and 4") for the bass traps, baffles, diffusers, and gobos.  I did this more out of necessity for freeing up surface area for installing racks, but it seems to work and it eliminated the stands and any potential reflections from the sides of the stands (which were filled with sand.... sometimes I go a little over the edge me thinks.. LOL)

Do you think your mixes sounded better with the 15's and horns?  if so, you might want to consider getting a small sub, but I caution without some room treatment as you may tend to find you've just made getting a good LF mix in your tunes more difficult, especially if listening on a system without subs

I've always heard to listen at a level that is comfortable to your ears with out fatigue. You shouldn't have to strain to hear anything... and likewise, not much point mixing if you've fatigued your hearing due to volume.

My band records portions of every rehearsal- 14 tracks, and I've learned it's best to not try and mix after the rehearsal as my ears are not to be trusted after a couple of hours in the cans

when you do mix, what is your workflow? a particular order to instruments? or do you just sort of jump into it?

Stainless